[Course Forum] Top Spoken Spanish Verb Forms #5 by ian_mn

course-forum

(Ian) #21

@silverbear -

I’ve completed my search for errors in all levels of this course.

I found another half dozen glitches - including couple of entries with missing accents that were due to another subtitles typo in the Wikipedia frequency list. I’ve figured out an easy method for detecting/correcting this issue during future course construction.

I’ve not checked any of the audio for Levels 6 onwards - just let me know if you spot any errors and I’ll fix them.


(Silverbear) #22

L7: habrías ido = you would have gone …needs tú
L7: permiten = you (Ud.) permit … one singular, other plural


(Silverbear) #23

L9: dudé que hubiéramos visto=I doubed that we had seen …doubted
L9: dudo que te importe=I doubt that it matters to you (tú) … sound error


(Silverbear) #24

L09: ¡no mueras!=don’t die!i …needs tú
L10: habíamos creído=I had believed … 3rd v 1st person


(Silverbear) #25

L11: se caen=you (Ud.) fall down … 3rd v 1st person


(Silverbear) #26

L10: dudo que cortes=I doubt that you cut … needs tú
L11: se habrá retirado=you will have retired (… r…) … needs Ud
L12: dudo que hayas golpeado=I doubt that you have hit … needs tú


(Ian) #27

Thanks very much for doing all this error detection - there are more errors than I anticipated.

I corrected two of the four items you’ve just listed today, but had already noticed and corrected the other two last week, I think.

L10: dudo que cortes=I doubt that you cut … needs tú
L11: se habrá retirado=you will have retired (… r…) … needs Ud

I experimented with my Android phone, and I’m seeing that edits are not showing up on the Memrise App, although they are showing up on the web version. I’m wondering if you may be seeing the same thing.


(Silverbear) #28

My bad. The two you mentioned were from my spreadsheet.
I didn’t think there were many errors for a new course - mostly very minor typos.


(Ian) #29

I’ve been looking into the best approach for making a Verb Forms #6 course, and I think I’m probably going to use the frequency list by Alonso et al (2011) which was created out of transcriptions of three million words of spoken Spanish recorded in Spain. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50421064_Oral_frequency_norms_for_67979_Spanish_words

I’m planning to extract the 1000 most frequent verb forms that aren’t already covered by #1 thru #5. I think this should reflect everyday speech better than the Wiktionary subtitles frequency list I used for the earlier verb courses.


(Silverbear) #30

L12: dudo que se caiga=I doubt that I fall down … ?me caiga
L12: ¡no se levanten!=don’t get up! (Ud.), don’t stand up! … ?uds

The following still appears wrong on the Web version of Memrise:
L12: dudo que hayas golpeado=I doubt that you have hit … needs tú

I’m looking forward to #6:slightly_smiling_face:


(Silverbear) #31

L2: olvidaré=I will forget

I found this one confusing because, as understand it, olvidar on its own is transitive and therefore requires an an object. To say ‘I will forget’ you would to need to say ‘me olvidaré’.
Thoughts?


(Ian) #32

That’s an interesting point - I think you’re right. I’m thinking of changing the item and adding a new one:

olvidaré algo = I will forget something

and I could add:

me olvidaré = I will forget. (without object)

With an object, the reflexive form seems to need “de” included but the non-reflexive form doesn’t (I think).

https://www.linguee.com/english-spanish/search?source=auto&query=olvidaré

https://www.linguee.com/english-spanish/search?source=auto&query=me+olvidaré


(Silverbear) #33

That’s how I understand it too …and then there’s the impersonal form which seems to be used quite a lot.
What I have gathered from my research is:
olvidar algo - quite formal e.g. ‘help, I forgot my password’ - ¡Ayúdame! Olvidé mi contraseña
olvidarse (de algo) - deliberate/accepting fault e.g. ‘The nation will never forget its heroes.’ - El pueblo nunca se olvidará de sus héroes.
olvidársele (de algo) - accidental (it slipped my mind) e.g. ‘one day I forgot the car keys’ - Un día se me olvidaron las llaves del coche

I’ll check this with my Spanish friends in the next day or so, and ask them about frequency of usage.


(Ian) #34

Thanks - I’ll wait on your comments before making changes.

I already have a couple of impersonal forms in verbs #4, L4:

se te olvidó algo = you (tú) forgot something (impersonal)
se me olvidó algo = I forgot something (impersonal)

I’ve added “impersonal” to reduce potential ambiguity.


(Silverbear) #35

Well, what a can of worms! On both Monday & Tuesday, the discussion didn’t get past the grammatical usage of impersonal verbs in Spanish. Anyway, the grammar side of what I wrote was correct, though I must amend the way I wrote the 3rd form (you got this right in your eg):

Olvidársele algo - accidental (it slipped my mind) e.g. ‘one day I forgot the car keys’ - Un día se me olvidaron las llaves del coche

Ofcourse, the ‘de’ doesn’t’ make sense here.

All I can do is offer my sources:

https://www.realfastspanish.com/podcast/olvidar-vs-olvidarse-how-to-forget-in-spanish

From Butt & Benjamin (my Spanish Bible)

26.7.26 Olvidar / olvidarse (de) / olvidársele algo a uno
The verb means ‘to forget’, and there are four possibilities: olvidar algo, olvidarse algo, olvidarse de
algo
and olvidársele algo a alguien.

(a) When deliberate forgetting is implied, the first form is rather formal and is usually replaced
in colloquial styles by olvidarse de: no puedo olvidarla / no puedo olvidarme de ella ‘I can’t forget her’.

(b) For absent-minded forgetting olvidar and olvidársele can be used, the former again being
rather formal: he olvidado mi agenda / se me olvidó la agenda ‘I’ve forgotten my diary’, se le olvidaban los otros compromisos , se le olvidaba todo menos ella (G. García Márquez, Col.) ‘he forgot his other commitments, he forgot everything except her’. In the latter construction, the thing forgotten is the subject of the verb: se me olvidaron las flores ‘I forgot the flowers’ (lit. ‘the flowers forgot themselves “on” me’).

(c ) Olvidarse algo (without the de ) is colloquial and is censured by some grammarians, including
Manuel Seco; the DPD recommends avoiding it, but notes that it is a construction that has a long
history. Foreigners should probably say me he olvidado de eIIa or la he olvidado and not me la he olvidado. It can, however, be used colloquially for the accidental forgetting of objects : me he olvidado el Iibro / se me olvidó eI libro ‘I’ve forgotten the book’ (but, since this is absent-minded forgetting, not
me he olvidado del libro ). Olvidarse algo is also common in Latin America.


(Ian) #36

Thanks for the very detailed investigation!

There are 18 “olvidar” items in the verb courses. I’ll review them all during the next few days, and make changes to the definitions as appropriate.


(Silverbear) #37

Sorry - it was a bit of a brain dump. I had to go away unexpectedly and wasn’t sure when I’d be back. I wanted to reply while I remembered.


(Ian) #38

I appreciate you sending the information.